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From: Ken James (no email)
Date: Tue Nov 02 2004 - 19:08:36 EST
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:10:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Chuck Morford <>
Subject: Re: Re: Regen with modern tech
One reason I can think of:
The greater density of water will spin a smaller
prop faster,
No, it won't. The speed of the prop is not detrmined solely by the density
of what it spins in. It depends on blade design, surface area, total length,
speed differences, loading, ect ect, and indeed water being more viscous
than air is inherently more "lossy".
So the only real reasons I can think of for using a water generator is that
the boat will be going so fast and in such a direction a good deal of the
time there is not much realitive wind speed or you jjust don't like wind
generators. But water generators have some signifigent dis-advantages that
wind generators do not have, such as increased damage risk, more drag per
watt, more expensive, ect ect.-Ken
thereby generating more energy than
an equivalent windspeed, i.e. 5 knots through
water produces more energy than 5 knots through
air. Don't have the numbers at hand, but I would
guess it to be more than 3 times as much.
> I don't understand WHY anyone would drag
> windmill in the water? If you're sailing,
> you've got enough wind to spin it right? If
> you're motoring then you've got an alternator
> spinning right? What am I missing here?
>
> I like the idea of a propshaft mounted
> alternator, especially for larger boats. It
> seems simple and logical.
>
> However, it seems that a wind generator is a
> lot more versatile and just as, if not more,
> efficient than the propshaft mounted alternator
> arrangement. In addition to being more
> versatile since it works on the hook (assuming
> there is wind) as well as at sea. I understand
> needing solar and wind, or solar and propshaft
> alternator, but WHY would anyone need both a
> Wind Gen and Water Gen?
>
> I'm very confused...
>
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:24:13 -0000
From: "cirejay" <>
Subject: Re: Regen with modern tech
--- In , "Jon Brown" <jb510_yg at h dot dot dot >
wrote:
> I don't understand WHY anyone would drag windmill in the water?
If you're sailing, you've got enough wind to spin it right? If
you're motoring then you've got an alternator spinning right? What
am I missing here?
>
> I like the idea of a propshaft mounted alternator, especially for
larger boats. It seems simple and logical.
>
> However, it seems that a wind generator is a lot more versatile
and just as, if not more, efficient than the propshaft mounted
alternator arrangement. In addition to being more versatile since
it works on the hook (assuming there is wind) as well as at sea. I
understand needing solar and wind, or solar and propshaft
alternator, but WHY would anyone need both a Wind Gen and Water Gen?
>
> I'm very confused...
Jon,
The nice thing about solar is that it can be completely passive if
one decides to just mount the panels and not worry about aiming
them. Water is much more efficent than wind (water is just a bit
more dense) which is why one can get 5 Amps out of 5 knots. But, of
course, is usless at anchor. Unless one anchors in a tidal race:-)
I've never actually had wind on any of my boats. I love the concept
but when I've talked to long term cruiser I usually find that they
are not crazy about theirs or they say that they love it and then
proceed which any number of horror stories.
Underway, wind seems to work best close hauled and is not much use
at all when running. One would think that wind comes into it's own
at anchor but then do you really want to seek out a windy
anchorage? And, even though they have gotten better, don't forget
the noise.
Just my thoughts, eric
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:23:30 -0000
From: "jim_both" <>
Subject: Re: Regen with modern tech
Another reason is that the apparent wind when sailing may be
insufficient to be effective for wind generation.
--- In , "Jon Brown" <jb510_yg at h dot dot dot >
wrote:
> I don't understand WHY anyone would drag windmill in the water? If
you're sailing, you've got enough wind to spin it right? If you're
motoring then you've got an alternator spinning right? What am I
missing here?
>
> I like the idea of a propshaft mounted alternator, especially for
larger boats. It seems simple and logical.
>
> However, it seems that a wind generator is a lot more versatile and
just as, if not more, efficient than the propshaft mounted alternator
arrangement. In addition to being more versatile since it works on
the hook (assuming there is wind) as well as at sea. I understand
needing solar and wind, or solar and propshaft alternator, but WHY
would anyone need both a Wind Gen and Water Gen?
>
> I'm very confused...
>
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:19:45 -0500
From: Joe & Lynn Jelinski <>
Subject: Re: Re: Regen with modern tech
I agree. Several long-term cruisers have told me that the "coconut milk
run" route through the tropics is nearly all downwind.
If that's the case, you end up running with double headsails poled out, and
you see boats equipped with two whisker poles for that reason. The
apparent wind when running is so slight that you can't get the wind
generator to spin, and that's when the water generator option becomes
attractive. Those folks deploy either the wind generator or the water
generator as required to charge their batteries. I haven't heard of anyone
doing both simultaneously, but maybe some do.
I'm down in Melbourne FL for the Seven Seas Cruising Association's annual
gam this weekend. There will be several circumnavigators in attendance,
and if anyone needs firsthand confirmation, I can collar one of them and
get some opinions. But be careful what you wish for -- any three sailors
will have at least four opinions among them....
Joe
s/v Sunshine
At 07:23 PM 11/1/2004, you wrote:
>Another reason is that the apparent wind when sailing may be
>insufficient to be effective for wind generation.
>
>
>--- In , "Jon Brown" <jb510_yg at h dot dot dot >
>wrote:
> > I don't understand WHY anyone would drag windmill in the water? If
>you're sailing, you've got enough wind to spin it right? If you're
>motoring then you've got an alternator spinning right? What am I
>missing here?
> >
> > I like the idea of a propshaft mounted alternator, especially for
>larger boats. It seems simple and logical.
> >
> > However, it seems that a wind generator is a lot more versatile and
>just as, if not more, efficient than the propshaft mounted alternator
>arrangement. In addition to being more versatile since it works on
>the hook (assuming there is wind) as well as at sea. I understand
>needing solar and wind, or solar and propshaft alternator, but WHY
>would anyone need both a Wind Gen and Water Gen?
> >
> > I'm very confused...
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Joe & Lynn Jelinski
s/v Sunshine
411 Walnut Street #1425
Green Cove Springs FL 32043
(843) 412-4331
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:10:34 -0000
From: "flabahskipper" <>
Subject: Re: Regen with modern tech
I guess I missed the original premise of this thread.... the word
generator, diminutive form "gen" implies for me a somewhat power-
centric device, not a battery charger.
When I start my generator (5.5Kw) I need to drive a 110 v
refrigeration compressor, battery charger and air conditioning.
Though I have 8 T-105 batteries, the compressors will suck them dry
in minutes if I was wired to allow it.
What is "regen with modern tech"?
Regards
Ron Breen
s/v Dances With Wind
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:20:51 -0000
From: "flabahskipper" <>
Subject: Re: Chartering as Owner Operator
Bill,
I was on the road to getting my captain's licnese when I learned that
SUBSTANTIAL liabilities exist for the holder of a captain's license
vis-a-vis failure to perform, injury, negligence, etc. Getting a
Captain's license gives one substantial priviledge and substantial
liability.
I have given up my vain pursuit of the C.G. title of captain, and am
now satisfied with enjoying my vessel. I am still the captain.
Regards
Ron Breen
s/v Dances With Wind
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:24:08 EST
From:
Subject: Re: Re: Regen with modern tech
In a message dated 11/1/04 9:24:38 PM, writes:
> But be careful what you wish for -- any three sailors
> will have at least four opinions among them....
>
>
hmmmmmm…I thought Sailor's were like Episcopalians…whereever 2 or more are
gathered…there is always a 5th…
Gil
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:29:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Len den Besten <>
Subject: Re: Independence (was: regen with modern tech)
Hi Jon,
The insufficient apparent wind when sailing downwind
is already mentioned. In addition to that my first
cruising-motto is "be as independent as you can get".
This of course also effects the way I want to generate
power. My primary aim is solar cause a) it is
independent of diesel-fuel, b) it's silent and clean
in use and c) I happen to have the room for it.
The investment is costly but I'll have my amps for
free. And what will fuel prices be in the future?
My second motto is "always have another option" so
I'll install an X-Air Marine and a High-Output
alternator. The X-Air Marine is second choice cause I
would choose the DuoGen if I didn't have my gantry.
The former owner already installed a 6 kva
diesel-generator but I hope that will just be a last
resort I'll only use now and then.
In addition to improving my power-generating I'm
looking for ways to lessen the power consumption.
Led-lights (in- and exterior) and extra isolation for
the fridge can provide a big improvement.
And last but not least I want to own batteries that
will last even without attention or maintenance. These
2-volts gel-cells allow depletion to 100% and last for
20 years (this is the suppliers claim). Again
indecently expensive but hey I want to live to be 100
and as a liveabord....
Talking of indepent cruising. I'm always looking for
upgrade on that. I do all maintenance myself,
including the engines, the heater and the electrical
systems. Just started a Ham-course so I hope I'll
understand electronics on a more than my present very
basic level.
I have this Pfaff industrial sewing machine so I can
(emergency-)repair my own sails.
At present I'm taking 2 welding courses (with
certification) and am looking for a tig welding
machine on 220 volts (ok, I admit the diesel generator
is needed for this) so I can make my own (alu-)repairs
and alterations and maybe help a fellow cruiser out or
even earn a buck in a harbour with no professional
welder in sight.
I'm looking for a dive-compressor so I can fill my
bottle myself for underwater maintenance and propellor
clearing.
What do all of you do to get more independent or
self-sufficient?
Greetings,
Len
S/v Present
--- Jon Brown <> wrote:
> I don't understand WHY anyone would drag windmill in
> the water? If you're sailing, you've got enough
> wind to spin it right? If you're motoring then
> you've got an alternator spinning right? What am I
> missing here?
>
> I like the idea of a propshaft mounted alternator,
> especially for larger boats. It seems simple and
> logical.
>
> However, it seems that a wind generator is a lot
> more versatile and just as, if not more, efficient
> than the propshaft mounted alternator arrangement.
> In addition to being more versatile since it works
> on the hook (assuming there is wind) as well as at
> sea. I understand needing solar and wind, or solar
> and propshaft alternator, but WHY would anyone need
> both a Wind Gen and Water Gen?
>
> I'm very confused...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Len den Besten
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 10:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [world-cruising] Re: Regen with
> modern tech
>
>
> The concept of a combined wind- and water
> generator is
> also use by the duo-gen.
> http://www.rietpol.nl/duogen.htm
> It's a dutch site but the pictures suffice...
> I won't install it cause I have this gantry
> mounted on
> my pushpit. I'll install an Air-X Marine instead
> on
> top of the gantry.
>
> When you install solar panels be aware of the up
> to
> 30% higher efficiency you can achieve with a
> MPPT-charger.
> It's electronics makes proper use of the 17 volts
> the
> panels provide and does not simply cut away the
> "superfluous" 2,5 volts.
>
> I'll need a lot of solar panels to keep up with a
> fridge and a freezer. I know, I can do without but
> my
> wife and I like it too much. After filling up the
> roof
> of the decksaloon and the bimini I'm thinking of
> "pivoting away" four panels in the searailing and
> turning them towards the sun (with a variable
> angle)
> when on anchor.
>
> Greetingz,
> Len
> S/v Present
>
> --- Joe & Lynn Jelinski <>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > One option is to use the Fourwinds wind
> generator,
> > which has a water
> > generator option. Apparently you convert from
> the
> > wind blades to a towed
> > water-blade assembly, and it takes about ten
> minutes
> > to do the
> > conversion. Might take me longer.
> >
> > I have the wind generator, and it works pretty
> well.
> > A friend on a
> > sistership has the same wind generator with the
> > water conversion, and he's
> > underway to the Caribbean right now, using the
> water
> > generator.
> >
> > Joe
> > s/v Sunshine
> >
> > At 09:23 PM 10/31/2004, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >--- In , Jim
> Maxey
> > <jmax010 at y dot dot dot >
> > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone thought of using either a
> electric
> > outboard motor with
> > >the propeller reversed or replacing the power
> head
> > of a standard
> > >outboard motor shaft/prop assembly? I could
> > envision this mounted
> > >on a standard retracting outboard motor bracket
> so
> > it could raised
> > >up out of the water when it is not needed or
> wanted
> > for reduced drag.
> > > > Jim
> > >
> > >Yep Jim,
> > >In fact an AQUAIR U.W. (no financial connection
> to
> > them), mounted on
> > >a retractable pole, is what I will probably be
> > using on my Rasmus
> > >35.
> > >I have a Max prop which can be locked in
> reverse to
> > make it quite
> > >efficient for using the drive shaft to regen
> but I
> > would rather keep
> > >the process separate. I see this as a great way
> to
> > "trickle charge",
> > >as someone here put it, while on long multi
> > day/week trips.
> > >eric
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/world-cruising/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an > email to: > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 14 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:40:26 -0800 (PST) From: Len den Besten <> Subject: Re: Re: Regen with modern tech Hi Ron, My bad, I answered thinking "regen" meant alternative energy in a broader sense. Greetings, Len. S/v Present P.S. Ever considered renaming in "Dances With Diesel"? Just kidding... :) --- flabahskipper <> wrote: > > I guess I missed the original premise of this > thread.... the word > generator, diminutive form "gen" implies for me a > somewhat power- > centric device, not a battery charger. > > When I start my generator (5.5Kw) I need to drive a > 110 v > refrigeration compressor, battery charger and air > conditioning. > > Though I have 8 T-105 batteries, the compressors > will suck them dry > in minutes if I was wired to allow it. > > What is "regen with modern tech"? > > Regards > Ron Breen > s/v Dances With Wind ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/A1TolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/world-cruising/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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