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Subject: Re: [world-cruising] Fiberglass or Steel
From: Bryan Genez (capella@XXX.XXX)
Date: Mon May 12 2003 - 10:19:31 EDT
JAXAshby@XXX.XXX wrote:
> capella, your prejudices are coloring your "facts".
As are yours.
>
> The statement stands, _generally speaking_ steel boats (we are talking of
> recreational sailboats here) are build *much* stronger than glass boats.
No. The statement is wrong, and your re-assertion of it a a fact does not
make it so. The strength of any boat is a function of the *builder* and the
*builder's construction standards* more so than the material.
>> That has *nothing* to do with strength of construction.
>
> So?
Because your assertion is that the materials used by the builder defines the
boat's strength.
> If money is less important, you can get a > custom-built metal boat from a
>> reputable builder.
>
> If money is MORE important, you can get a custom-built metal boat from a
> reputable builder for faaaaaaaaaar less than you can get a custom-built glass
> boat from a reputable builder. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, the discussion is the
> price of a same quality used steel sailboat as compared to a same quality
> used glass sailboat, and under that criteria the steel boat costs much, much,
> much, much less.
Amazing how many custom-built fiberglass boats are out there. Must be a
bunch of idiots who spend so much money when they could have a stronger and
cheaper boat made of steel. Those rich folks must be pretty stupid, eh?
>
> The discussion plainly stated that a potential buyer become knowledgeable
> enough to know those items regarding a steel boat _without_ professional
> surveyor assistance. The discussion plainly stated that same quality boats
> -- steel and glass -- are being compared. The discussion also plainly stated
> that low quality steel boats can live on for decades while low quality glass
> boats are dumpsterized decades earlier.
Wow. You don't believe in surveyors either! How do you expect the average
buyer to get so educated, when most quality surveyors have decades of
boating experience behind them (as do most manufacturers, but not
home-builders)?
>
>> In order to keep them seaworthy, steel boats require *more* attention and
>> *more* maintenance than fiberglass.
>
> Not true. Not true at all. What is true that steel boat require more
> attention to stay looking good.
Wow. You're beginning to scare me. Not only do you demonstrate a lack of
understanding of steel, it's clear you haven't even attempted to learn.
>
> As Rick pointed out, steel boats rust > from the inside out. Corrosion begins
>> at the weld points. Every weld should be inspected routinely and
>> protected. Note that *no* protection is permanent.
>
> So? You expect that glass boats can be ignored in their day-by-day,
> year-by-year use?
In the areas of interior welds, yes. Absolutely. Do glass boats need some
inspections. Sure. But not to the extent that is required by steel.
>
> Unfortunately, most steel boats have ribs that are completely > inaccessible,
>> as home-builders don't think of inspection requirements.
>
> How is this different from the interior pan arrangement used by production
> glass boat builders for the last three decades?
Fiberglass doesn't rust.
>
> btw, a steel boat that can not be thoroughly inspected without removing the
> interior is not a boat that should be considered for purchase. That *some*
> steel boats are built that way does not condemn those that are not.
Most are not. How many have you seen that are? I've seen none, and I've
looked at scores, both home built and production (including Van de Stadt,
which you reference later).
>
> The availability of solid repairs to steel boats is one of the reasons you
> see so many decades old steel boats -- even poorly constructed steel boats.
> Old glass boats usually are not worth the effort to repair structural
> problems in the boat.
Actually, I've seen many glass boats that are 30-40 years old. I cannot
remember seeing a solitary home-built steel recreational boat of that age.
Most home-built steel sailboats seem to self-destruct somewhere between
10-20 years; it's rare to see one older. I have visited some third-world
countries where steel work boats are kept afloat for longer times, but
they're not used for passagemaking.
>
> btw, the impact that puts a hole in a glass boat small enough to repair with
> the stuff in a "small drawer" (your words) merely scratches the steel boat,
> which keeps on sailing. The impact that puts a glass boat out of commission
> for months often leaves the steel boat merely scratched up, or maybe dented a
> bit, and the boat sails on, repairs to be made when convenient.
I've seen steel boats with weld failures that fully disabled the
boat...failures that occurred while sailing on a "normal" day. And I've
seen fiberglass boats that get disabled in equally mild conditions. There
are no guarantees. The point of my comments was that fiberglass boats that
incur damage in some remote area are not abandoned. They're repaired and
sailed on.
>
>>
>> But the bottom line (at least for me) is this. The oceans are not filled
>> with semi-submerged containers waiting for a boat to sink. Nor are they
>> filled with pirates waiting for sailors to kill. Almost every boat built
>> is
>> strong enough to cross an ocean; the weak link is the crew.
>
> Actually, the weak link is that hard stuff around the sides of the oceans.
> That and the fact that virtually every last cruising boat eventually hits
> that hard stuff. Some cruisers are more comfortable with a stronger boat
> between them and the hard stuff out there.
Clearly, while you own a boat, you've never made a passage. And equally
foolish is your comment that all cruisers eventually run aground. Perhaps a
course in navigation might help.
>
> If your boat is > not capable of keeping the crew comfortable and safe, you
>> will not have a successful passage. When selecting a boat for
>> passagemaking, the *first*
>> criteria should be if that boat has a history of successful passages.
>
> Nah.
>
> If it > does not - and I include in that category every home-built boat - you
>> should
>> either eliminate it or very carefully examine it for your intended use.
>
>
> No, not I should, but rather *you* should, for that is what you are
> comfortable with. Me, I'm comfortable with my knowledge of boats and my
> ability to inspect them. I'm also comfortable with the lower price of a
> steel boat of the same quality as a glass boat.
Fortunately, no one I care about will ever go sailing with you. Your
knowledge is somewhat lacking, and I for one would not entrust my life to
your knowledge, as demonstrated in this exchange.
>
> btw, I currently own a glass boat simply because that was the boat that was
> available to me when I wanted to buy. Somewhat later, a steel boat (home
> built) stopped in my boatyard for a couple hours one Sunday. The owner
> wished to sell the boat as it was bigger (40 feet) than he wished to sail. I
> took the guy's name and number and called him back that winter. The boat was
> sold to a couple who later became friends of mine. That couple is cruising
> right now and have been Maine to the Caribbean and back twice.
Since cheap steel boats are available all over the world, I'm surprised you
couldn't find a bargain before you bought your glass boat. With your
extensive knowledge, I can't believe you settled for glass. :-/
>
> For the price of your Valiant, you could have bought a Van de Stadt 48 with
> palacial interior and had a hundred grand left over.
Then someone would have had to pay me to take the Van de Stadt 48 off their
hands. FWIW, I *love* that boat and it's design...one of the best. But
comparably outfitted, it is still far more expensive than a new Valiant 42,
and about the same as a new Valiant 50 (I've checked!). And again, this
boat is professionally built. I have no argument whatsoever with
professionally built steel (or aluminum) boats. The risk - as I said before
- is in buying the construction standards of a hobbyist.
-- Best,Bryan (KB3HMZ) "Capella" Valiant 40 #158 Annapolis, MD
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