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Subject: Re: [world-cruising] Re:Surveyors
From: Rick Bradshaw (rbradsh2@XXX.XXX)
Date: Wed Jan 01 2003 - 18:13:13 EST
At 00:32 -0500 1/1/03, Robin L Krest wrote:
>Let the
>> surveyors do their jobs and then ask them questions that you have.
>> If
>> you interrupt them when they are working, they could miss a few
>> things. Also, keep in mind that there is not a surveyor alive who
>> will catch every single problem with a boat unless s/he is
>> _extremely_ lucky or the boat is _exceptionally_ clean and
>> together.
>>
>
>While I heartily agree with the sentiment that spending the money on a
>surveyor is money well spent, I do disagree on the above statement. A
>good surveyor should allow you to be there and ask questions, and be
>willing to explain everything to you that she finds. If you feel the
>surveyor does not want you around, find a different one. We just
>purchased our first large sailboat, and the surveyor wanted us there and
>spent 7 hours going over the boat with a fine tooth comb, explaining any
>problems, the seriousness or not of the problem, and possible ways to fix
>them.
At 07:45 -0500 1/1/03, Brian and Elaine Timmins wrote:
>When we bought our current boat (1982 Landfall 39), it was the first time
>I hired an independant surveyor (out of 6 previous boat purchases over the
>years). He not only wanted me to be there, he also wanted to know my plans
>for the boat and spent a reasonable amount of time assessing me and my
>ability to undertake the required repairs. I was quite surprised to find
>that the entire survey process took about 8 hours, including a short (and
>quick) haul and a sea trial (under power only as previously agreed). His
>rigging inspection only included visual check of what could be seen from the
>deck, and he left checking the sails up to me (with instructions and
>recommendations).
> His report yo me included EVERYTHING under the sun (given verbally after
>the inspection) and then he targetted the written report to my needs and
>desires (yes to purchase the boat and obtain financing and insurance). He
>found a few things that I hadn't spotted and described them in detail with
>probable causes. He also prioritized the repair list of things to do and
>included a breif lesson in replacing (iron) fuel tanks.
> To sum up, my surveyor insisted I be there, and I'm really glad I was!
I wasn't saying the buyer, presuming that is the surveyor's
client,should _not_ be there. I think it is important to be there if
you want to be there. If you have questions, _you_ write them down
and ask when it is time. Any good surveyor will be more than happy to
answer you then and will have the time to give you a more complete
answer. Some may prefer it the other way too.
Most will want to know your plans for the boat. S/he will look at a
Catalina 27, for example, much different if you say you want to sail
abound the world than if you are going to sail across the local lake
(Great Lakes probably excluded).
Good reports _will_ prioritize the problems. They will identify those
things that are _required_ to be operational for safety by law and
regulation. They will identify those that may not be a safety issue
but are still required. Then, there are those things that would be
"nice" to do if you have the time and money. You may also get several
photos of the problems and or overall condition of the boat plus
diagrams of some things built into the report. Some reports might be
near works of art that the surveyor has authored. Then, there are the
couple page, checklist reports that you _don't_ want but which will
be less expensive and may require doing again by someone else the
financial or insurance people recognize.
What I was saying is that _some_, not all, surveyors like to
concentrate on their job and that is finding the problems and
identifying the vessel and everything on it, good and bad. For some,
that means they don't welcome interruptions from anyone for any
reason. There is a time for asking questions and a time for not
asking questions. The time for asking may not be when your surveyor
is trying to concentrate on doing the job you hired him/her to do. If
your surveyor is one who likes to talk while s/he does the work,
great. So be it. Ask yourself if you will remember what s/he has just
told you. It's nice to know but will you remember or not? After all,
it will be in the final report. When you ask questions, write down
the questions and answers or even tape them.
If you distract him/her and s/he happens to miss finding something or
miss putting something in the report because s/he was busy talking
when s/he should have been writing down the information just found,
whose fault is it, the surveyor or the buyer/client who was doing the
interruption? You're paying for the knowledge, training, and
information and you're paying for the _written_report_ that is the
total of that knowledge, training, and information as applies to the
vessel in question. If you should ever decide to take legal action
for some reason, it is the _written_report_ that will be in question.
Do you want to compromise that report or ability because you don't
want to wait a little while?
Also, s/he might not give the same information to you verbally while
the survey is going on than when the survey is complete or in the
final written report when there is time to digest the findings.
Things may change depending on what is found earlier or later in the
survey. What might be indicated at one time may be contraindicated at
another or may need to be modified in some way. Get the whole story
when the story is complete, not a part of the story when it is
something you are interested in at the moment. Apply it to yourself.
If you know something about a certain thing at a certain point in a
task and someone asks you about it, you tell them what you know.
later, if you find out something else about that task and it changes
the answer you would have given in the first part if you would have
known about it then and the person doesn't ask you about that part,
do you remember to tell the person then or do you put it in the final
report on the task? If that person later asks you why you didn't tell
him/her about it when you were talking, do you say, "You didn't ask
me." or what? It's in the final report. Read it. Digest it. That's
what you are paying for. That's where the real information is.
Just use some common sense. There is a time and a place for
everything and not everyone, nor every surveyor, works the same. Just
because one surveyor likes to talk and answer questions while s/he
works doesn't make him/her a good surveyor. By the same token, if a
surveyor wants to concentrate on the job and answer questions later,
that also doesn't make him/her a bad surveyor. It just makes them
different in the way they go about things.
At 10:45 -0600 1/1/03, Orrin Lokken wrote:
>I agree with all who say _be there_.
>When we purchased DENALI (Nauticat 40) in Maine last November, I was
>in a hurry to take posession and get the boat hauled and winterized.
>I hired a good surveyor but couldn't get there from Wisconsin to
>attend the survey. When I finally got out after buying the boat, I
>found about $10K worth of needed repairs he had missed. After
>Morris Yachts got into the boat, there were another $15K worth that
>niether of us had found. In addition, the noted problems cost about
>three times as much to repair as the surveyor estimated. When it
>finally arrived in WI last June ($60K later), I had to spend the
>entire sailing season working on systems that were still not up to
>standard and redoing some of the shoddy work which had been done.
>Bottom line-- hire a good surveyor, be there, and don't be in a
>hurry to close. Spend time on the boat, walk away to think about it
>then come back to look again.
Being there should not be a deal breaker. If you can't be there, you
can't. If you don't want to pass up the chance at the boat, just do
the best you can to get a good surveyor. Check with the national
organizations for surveyors for recommendations. For example, SAMS
and NAMS are the dominant ones. A good one will treat you the same
whether you are 2 feet away or are half way around the world. If you
absolutely must be there, be prepared to pass up a lot of good boats
if you are searching over a great distance.
I stand by my statement that there is no surveyor that will catch
everything. Last time I looked, there weren't too many people alive
today who are perfect. The odds are that your surveyor isn't either.
They may get lucky and catch everything. S/he may miss a small thing
or a big thing. It depends on a lot of things but I'd prefer it be
the small thing.
Orrin, in your case for instance, I have no idea as to the specifics.
However, the difference in cost might depend on where the boat was
purchased and where the boat was repaired. If, for example, it was
purchased in Florida and estimates were done by a yard there, it
might have been one price based on one cost of living. The Morris
Yachts yard, being in a different location and pretty much top of the
line might charge more for the same repairs. Also, They might do
things differently. Where one yard repair might be just fine, Morris
might be absolutely perfect or even overkill for the same thing.
Yards, good ones and bad ones, will sometimes rip you off. Sometimes
they will "find" things that are "bad" when they really aren't. They
might work but just might not be optimal and in their opinion be bad.
Sometimes it might be an inadvertent rip off but the effect to you as
the owner is the same.
There are other questions that could shed a lot of light on why so
much was missed. _Where_ were these missed things? What systems were
they in? For example, engine/transmission problems? Was your surveyor
an engine surveyor? (For those who may not know, hull surveyors are
different from engine surveyors are different from riggers who do
rigging surveys and there are other kinds of surveyors as well that
get into commercial vessels.) If so, was, for example, it run under
load, without load, were samples taken and analyzed? Electrical
problems? Was electrical power available for the vessel? Leaky tanks?
Was there anything in them to indicate a leak? Were leaks not visible
to the inspector? The surveyor may have needed to take things apart
to get to them and that makes the surveyor responsible for putting
them back together, including costs to do so and repairs if something
is inadvertently damaged in the process _unless_ some arrangements,
in writing, have been made in advance.
My point here is not to point the finger of blame at _anyone_ or to
make the surveyor blameless but to point out that there are reasons
surveyors miss some things and those things are often in the
statement of conditions/permissions under which the survey is done.
Those things might not have been completely understood by either
party when the survey contract was signed. Other times, the
buyer/client may just not take the time to read the report and digest
it or even the broker might "whitewash" it. The info might be right
there but not completely understood.
I heartily endorse not being in a hurry to close the deal. Use the
final survey report to get a better deal if you can. The current
owner would have to fix these things if s/he didn't sell it and
continued to use it. They should at least split some of the costs of
repair. The broker, if there is one, will often want to hurry the
deal to get his/her money as quickly as possible. You've got the
money. Hold on to it if s/he doesn't want to be reasonable. But, you
be reasonable too. Don't expect a new boat like condition in a used
boat. There will be things wrong to fix unless you are extremely
fortunate indeed.
Well, FWIW that's my point of view anyway.
Rick
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