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From: (no name) (no email)
Date: Sun Aug 26 2007 - 11:24:43 EDT
Lee asks a good question. I too have been frustrated with surveyors who
insist that something or other be changed to "meet ABYC".
To my knowledge there is no requirement that any boat meet ABYC standards.
However most insurance companies will take as gospel the surveyors report and
you will spend more effort to convince them the boat is safe than it would
take to make the change. In fact, boats that met the standard 20 years ago are
now out of compliance due to changes in the standard. If there was a
grandfather clause in the standard, then that 20 year old boat would meet the
standard, but, since the surveyors are currently calling for changes to 20, 30 and 40
year old boats to now meet the standard, there apparently isn't a
grandfather clause.
I'd like to quote chapter and verse of the ABYC standards but you have to
purchase at some cost, all their materials. So when a surveyor states that "xyz"
is the standard you have to meet, you have to take his word for it or spend
innumerable dollars to refute it. This becomes a problem if this particular
surveyor has misinterpreted the standard.
Misinterpreting the standard is easy to do. When I put the fire hose system
on our yacht club docks I followed the NFPA standard of a 100 foot fire hose
being able to reach each slip. NFPA codes are available. That puts each
cabinet just under 200 feet from the last, because each hose can go both ways. 100
from one way, 100 from the other way and Viola! coverage. The insurance
company sent their inspector (surveyor) down to insure we met the standards. He
stated in his report that the code required hose cabinets every 100 feet.
Clearly he misinterpreted the standard by not having a good visual of how the
code and the system actually worked.
In actual practice, I find that each surveyor has his or her own "standard"
and looks for particular items. If your surveyor is an "electrical" guy,
everything electrical will be scrutinized. If he is a structural guy he'll know
every frame and corner in your boat, and so on. What one surveyor will not
"notice" becomes a deal killer for another. For Tim's case his surveyor is
requiring the 12 volt outlets be modified. My 1980 Puget Trawler has the same
system Tim's has. I have a 12 volt single outlet right next to the 110 volt
single outlet throughout the boat. Both had teak faceplates and except for the
third ground leg on the 110 they look very similar. My surveyor didn't bat an
eye at them.
Another example: My latest survey had 5 "must do immediately" and several
"do when convenient". The must do's were all paperwork oriented, written garbage
plan, copy of the navigation rules, outdated flares, etc. The not so urgent
included a leaky diesel fuel makeup pump on the main, and non-marine grade
fuel hose on the Dickenson diesel heater fuel tank pump. Which are really more
hazardous when cruising? I guess that depends if the Coast Guard comes
before or after the fire?
So, the surveyor is a hired agent primarily used to get an informed opinion
for the insurance company. They are also used by concerned owners for
pre-purchase, but most of us don't re-survey our boat unless the insurance company
requires it. The surveyor gets paid whether the boat passes or not. He gets
paid whether he finds all the problems with a boat or not. Unless he stinks
really bad, the insurance company will take his word as gospel. If you want to
refute him, then you pay again for another surveyor to do the entire job over
again, with the caveat that he too may call some seemingly oddball item as a
danger.
The only protection you and I have against surveyors who ask for outlandish
items is word of mouth. Ask about who does surveys in your area, see if people
will let you read their surveys to get a feel for what this one looks at
with the magnifying glass, and then make as good a decision as you can.
I will re-hire my last surveyor again whenever I need a new survey. He was
articulate with his requirements, his written report, while mostly boilerplate,
was easily readable, and his requirements were reasonable. The order the
requirements were listed in was not as I would have listed them, but they were
all there. They also allowed the insurance company to immediately bind the
insurance since the paperwork could be done immediately and the other stuff took
a week.
Your final question: "But, I, gently pushing back, what is the actual
violation???" The violation is a possible safety violation in the eyes of that
particular surveyor. And safety trumps everything. And since "you" hired the
surveyor he is "your" expert. And since the insurance company is all about
safety, they won't insure you unless your expert says its safe. If you don't have
insurance you can't get a loan. If you can't get a loan you can't buy the
boat. If you can't buy the boat, Momma ain't happy. And if Momma ain't
happy.........
Ken Buck
Currently aboard A Couple of Bucks
Subject: T&T: Surveyors (Was 12 volt receptacles)
To: TrawlerList TrawlerList
<>
Message-ID: <FCC2F8FD-2AA9-4C4C-8C10-B4D2823E588A at alum dot rpi dot edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Dear List,
Tim had a survey and the person did not like his 12 VDC outlets, and
said they had to go. Tim's boat is from 1983, and it appears that
these outlets have not been a problem in the past.
I am wondering under what ABYC / CE rule authority the surveyor is
citing to make Tim jump through hoops to fix a 20+ year old
installation. If the problem is concern on the part of the surveyor
that something wrong might be plugged in, then maybe Tim could get
male plugs with a small label made that states that these outlets are
just 12VDCs and leave them in the outlet unless there is an actual
appliance in use. Or, maybe a cover can be made that requires two
hands to lift.
I can understand the concern of the surveyor, but I have to push
back: What rule, standard, etc is Tim's boat violating and why all of
a sudden now?
Now do not get me wrong: This is a great suggestion. I might even
suggest that Tim look into European style round 220 VAC plugs to
substitute, as they have the min depth etc etc. But, I, gently
pushing back, what is the actual violation???
Lee
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