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From: Frank Reed (no email)
Date: Tue Apr 11 2006 - 22:09:19 EDT
This is a "meta" post. I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE for it, but I think I have to
reply to this one. By the way, if you're unfamiliar with the expression
meta-discussion (or you think it's new to this list), I highy recommend this
definition and discussion of meta-discussion:
http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18
Though this excellent account does not say so, technical difficulties are
one case where I think meta-discussion is inevitable, though it's certainly
still annoying.
George H, you wrote:
"Is the proposal for a "breakaway" list the result of a consensus, or a bit
of one-man opportunism?"
Let me start off by saying that there is no opportunism unless there is
valuable property on the line. List "ownership" is a very peculiar usage of the
word ownership since the owner gets nothing of value. While some list "owners"
imagine themselves to be powerful, in reality, a list owner, or list
manager, has almost no power. A list owner cannot stop spam. A list owner cannot
prevent abusive postings. A list owner cannot ban any person from posting to a
list (e-mail addresses can be banned, but in the present Internet e-mail
addresses are free and easy to create as often as needed so this address banning
capability is mostly useless). A list owner DOES have some basic
responsibilities that are more nuisance than anything else: the owner has to reply to
e-mails from people confused by their e-mail software, and the owner has to deal
with technical problems as they arise. The only circumstance where a list
owner has any real power is when the list is converted into a moderated list (on
a moderated list messages do not distribute unless and until they are
approved). This is an enormous amount of work and a sure way to kill any
non-mission-critical (a.k.a. "just for fun") discussion group.
So where do good Internet communities come from then? Why is most of the
discussion on Navigation-L civil and interesting? It's because the list members
are good people, and they have a shared interest in the topic. That's all it
takes.
Having said this, I will admit that there is an "impression" of authority
that goes with the title of list owner, and as I said right away, in the
initial post about NavList, I would be happy to see distributed ownership of the
list (three to five people maybe?). In fact, if it's not too complicated to
make it work, I don't give a damn whether I am included in that group or not. I
also would have no problem transfering ownership to one person (Dan Hogan? Is
this still an "authority" you want?), but I suggest a group of managers
simply because people sleep and go on vacation and on an active list, it's good
to have somebody watching for problems 24/7.
You also wrote:
"If our discussion group needs reconfiguring (and it may) then the way to do
it is via round-table discussion"
I notice you have referred to it as "our" group rather than Dan's group.
This is actually part of what I was getting at when I said above that list
"ownership" is a strange usage of the word. Nobody really "owns" the list. As for
round-table discussions, sheesh, how would you decide anything? Who gets to
participate in said discussions? Whose opinions matter more? How would you
vote on it?
Some people enjoy long negotiations to decide who's going to pick up litter
in their neighborhoods. Some people write letters to the mayor. Some write
letters to the local newspaper. Some post rants in their blogs. Me, I'm the
sort of person who gets out a bag and picks up the trash. Somebody's gotta do it.
You also wrote:
" Whatever admirable qualities Frank may possess, they do not include the
diplomacy, self-restraint, conciliation that would be called for in whoever
acts as mediator for a list such as ours. It would be a bit like putting John
McEnroe in charge of World Tennis."
And:
"It reminds me of the situation that occurs from time to time in a
third-world African republic. The President flies to Zurich for hospital treatment,
and in his absence, his rival calls on the Palace Guard, raising his banner and
crying "follow me". Next thing, the runway is blocked against his return.
With Frank in charge, I fear it would be like playing a game of street
football, when the other side owns the ball."
George, that's the best example I've seen in a long time of how to start an
Internet flamewar. Now... for my part, I'm going to demonstrate the best way
to end an Internet flamewar. I realize some of you may not want to see this,
so I'll leave a few blank lines here and make you scroll down to see it...
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[keep scrolling]
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[still scrolling??]
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[almost there]
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What??? You were expecting gasoline?? <g>
-FER
42.0N 87.7W, or 41.4N 72.1W.
www.HistoricalAtlas.com/lunars
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